Selectivity and sports...

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By Zanzibar on 09:30:28 06/17/22
[In reply to "Discussion with my boss (ND grad) wrt academics" by Trucker22, posted at 08:10:07 06/17/22]

: He says he respects OSU but it is no way comparable to ND. He is surely biased but always falls back on admission requirements and selectivity.

Notre Dame is more selective... for students in general. They are roughly as selective as Ohio State for football recruits. They'll accept a 900-ish SAT score for a suitably athletic kid.

Don't just take my word for it, take NDNation's (link at bottom):

In terms of getting in as a football player, they needed to have a SAT score in the high 800s to mid 900s. They also needed to have Cs in their high school classes. There were not required classes that needed to be taken in high school like there are for normal ND admitted students.

: I wish there was a state for ranking our top 1,000 incoming frosh each year. I bet we would be considered elite

Perhaps, but I don't think it's really sensible to rank a school on its top 5% of enrollees, either. I went to a school that admitted only about 200 students per year, so a "top 1,000" for them would include 800 rejections beyond their worst enrollee. :-)

The SAT is a pretty good predictor of college success. If you have a challenging curriculum, and you're throwing students with 875 SAT at it, they should be failing more often than not.

Now, Ohio State doesn't have that problem. They have easier degree tracks precisely because they are less selective. On that topic, something I wrote a couple years ago:

Clicking around the OSU roster on the AD web site, I picked upperclassmen (juniors + seniors) and grouped by major. Those groups with at least five athletes:

Not mentioned (11) - Chris Olave, Demario McCall, Teradja Mitchell, Sevyn Banks, Josh Proctor, Cameron Brown, Corey Rau, Jack Jamieson, Tommy Togiai, Jeremy Ruckert, Blake Haubeil

"Exploring majors" (6) - Dallas Gant, Xavier Johnson, K'Vaughan Pope, Ryan Batsch, Tyler Friday, Zaid Hamdan

Sport Industry (6) - Tyreke Smith, Shaun Wade, Zach Hoover, Josh Myers, Thayer Munford, Austin Kitscher


Consumer and Family Financial Services (4) - Justin Fields, Dominic DiMaccio, Trayvon Wilburn, Jerron Cage
Finance (4) - Kevin Dever, Mitch Rossi, Cade Kacherski, Roen McCullough
Communication (3) - Baron Browning, Jaylen Harris, Wyatt Davis
Human Development and Family Science (3) - Bradley Robinson (also majoring in Human Nutrition), Ellijah Gardiner, Luke Farrell
Psychology (2) - Phillip Thomas, Chris Booker

English (1) - Danny Vanatsky
Real Estate and Urban Analysis (1) - Pete Werner
History (1) - Marcus Williamson
Political Science (1) - Lloyd McFarquhar (unfortunately born and named a few years before Shrek was released)
Hospitality Management (1) - Robert Cope
Business - (1) Ben Schmiesing
Criminology (1) - Darryl Sinclair
Communications Analysis and Practices (separate from "Communication"?) (1) - Nathan Brock
Food, Agricultural, and Biological Engineering (1) - Aaron Cox
Mathematics (1) - Chris Kuhn
Strategic Communications (separate from "Communication"?) (1) - Jake Hausmann
Marketing (1) - Sam Wiglusz
Sociology (1) - Haskell Garrett

Michigan used to have a dumbed-down version of their kinesiology degree that lots of athletes took. It was essentially a juco-level "junior-high-school gym teachers of tomorrow" curriculum that no regular UM student would be interested in.

Ohio State has a bit of an advantage in this area. They are a bit less selective and therefore have a fair number of majors suited to kids who would have trouble hacking Michigan's regular-student academics. You don't see a single degree program that football players get herded into, because OSU doesn't need one.

I can't comment on how worthwhile a degree in, say, "Human Development and Family Science" or "Consumer and Family Financial Services" is. It doesn't appear to be a totally useless degree track that only football players are sent to. (It might be "somewhere relatively useless that kids who probably should have gone to community college end up," though.)

But how do the football factories that imagine themselves to be as elite as Ivy League schools do it? They must be doing something that turns their degree into a rubber-stamp.

I think it amounts to "choose any two": (a) admit marginal students; (b) have challenging curriculum; and (c) have relatively high graduation rates. Picking two will rule out the third.

Link: Debunking the myth of ND admissions standards

Edited by original poster [10:19:23 06/17/22]

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